EPISODE 5: THE SEEDS OF HATE
Bradley: If the Bible didn't say it would be wrong, then I would honestly have no problems with it.
Dylan: Then you'd be like, "Gay sex for everyone."
Bradley: (Laughs) For those who choose.
Dylan: Yeah. For those who choose or are born that way, to quote Lady Gaga.
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, I'm Dylan Marron and this is Conversations With People Who Hate Me, an interview series where I talk to some of the people behind the negative messages I've received online. As a video maker whose primary venue is the internet, I get a ton of unsolicited messages from people for many different reasons. Now to be fair, most of them are positive, some are even marriage proposals. Apologies to those potential fiancées, I'm already happily married, but thank you and I am flattered.
Yet, even with the positive messages, it's the negative ones that stick out the most and like why do our brains do that? It's that weird psychology where 100 positive comments aren't as loud as one negative one. Now I do get some blatantly hateful comments and messages, but today's guest didn't send an overtly hateful message at all. In fact, on the surface, some might even say it's a loving one. That is why this episode is called "The Seeds of Hate" and you'll understand why I chose to include it as part of this show, when you get to the end of our conversation.
I promise today's guest that I'd opened with this disclaimer: he strongly disagrees with the title, Conversations With People Who Hate Me. In fact, he feels morally opposed to the negativity that it suggests. Some of you may be thinking, "How could you force this man into doing something he's not comfortable with?" Well, don't worry, I didn't. As with all of my guests, he's an adult who consented to be recorded for this podcast. I even double checked with him last week to make sure he was still cool to release this episode, even with his moral disagreement with the show's title. He said yes.
So today I'm talking to Bradley and a few months ago Bradley sent me this message. "I'm not sure if you are religious or not, but I do talk about Christianity in here" and then, new paragraph. "Dylan Marron," he uses my full name, "being gay is a chemicals thing in your body but similar to addictions that people have. It's an addiction you can control. I am a Christian and I do believe homosexuality is a sin, but I also know and want you to know that God loves you and Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead for you." Thank you. "I sin in many different ways and I'm not better than you in that. The difference is trying to deny the bodily urges that the Bible says our sins and the 10 commandments or in Jesus' sermon on the mountain as it is best told and described there, Matthew 5:1 to 7:29. I have friends that are gay and friends that are different religions. Just thought you should know what was on my mind." So I am going to call Bradley right now.
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
Bradley: Hello.
Dylan: Hi, is this Bradley?
Bradley: This is indeed.
Dylan: Hi Bradley, how are you?
Bradley: I am pretty great. How are you doing?
Dylan: Oh, I'm good. Thank you for asking. So Bradley, what urged you to write me that initial message?
Bradley: I'd actually messaged a few different popular people on Facebook and videos and type of thing. But you're actually the only one that messaged back.
Dylan: Whoa.
Bradley: I wanted to show you kind of the lighter side of Christianity and different beliefs with that. So I just wanted to let you know that, "Hey, I mean, yeah, we might not agree on that, but I'm not going to be an asshole about it." I'm going to be there to talk about it.
Dylan: So you wanted to start a conversation. So tell me about the conversation you wanted to start.
Bradley: Well, really when it comes down to it, at the time, I was really struggling really, really heavily with depression at the time. So I just needed somebody to talk to. I wanted somebody that I could have conversations with that wasn't really at my college. (Laughs.) So there was just so much stuff happening and I just, for a lot of times, would just seclude myself in my room and not really do much. But yeah, so that's where I was like, "I should probably reach out and talk to people. Make sure I'm alive and doing stuff."
Dylan: That's interesting though to me, that you reached out to me in that state. You reached out with someone whose life you or lifestyle, however you want to put it, kind of disagree with.
Bradley: In a sense, yeah, because I was just messaging people. I didn't think that anybody would respond because I was at a point where it's like, "Hey, does my voice even count? Does my voice even matter?" So that's where I was just messaging people, just telling people kind of what was going down.
Dylan: I mean, Bradley, I totally relate to that. I totally relate to those times when I question if my voice matters, when I'm, just... I think I am just like a speck of sand in a huge beach, right? Like I'm nothing. I'm just a particle of dust floating somewhere. I totally get that. So you kind of wanted to see how you could impact other people, right?
Bradley: Yeah. If I even had an impact.
Dylan: But you do, you do have an impact because you're a human. Yeah. Is there something maybe unique about sending a message online that was different from talking to someone on your college campus?
Bradley: The main difference for me was that I didn't know you, you didn't know me and if I go on campus, people know me and I know them. It's not the biggest campus that I go to.
Dylan: I understand, but the Internet is a bigger campus?
Bradley: Yes.
Dylan: Got it.
Bradley: Much bigger.
Dylan: Well, Bradley, before we get further into this conversation, tell me a little about you.
Bradley: I mean, I'm kind of a mama's boy. I love my family. I love being energetic. I love playing sports. Not great at sports, but I love to them.
Dylan: But you love playing them. Okay, that's what matters.
Bradley: Yes. Yeah and I just love to be there for friends and to talk about things, whether they need a hug to give them a hug or if they just want to rant about something, to be there to listen. I just love having conversations, whether it's stuff that I agree with or disagree with. I just love having the conversation to hear where people come from and learn more about their story versus what I have perceived to be their story.
Dylan: Oh, that's amazing. Well, then you came to the right spot, Bradley. Not to brag. So in your message to me, you wanted to let me know that homosexuality is similar to addictions that people have and you wanted to tell me that it's an addiction that I can control. Why did you say that to me?
Bradley: I don't know how to really explain it. Let me try it this way. I said it because I felt it was something to say and to start a conversation about. Not necessarily, "Hey, this is 100% fact for you." But it's really to start that conversation, to have a basis of, this is what I believe to be true and it could be false.
Dylan: Do you believe that sexuality is an addiction that can be controlled?
Bradley: Not necessarily the gay part, but the sexual attraction, I do believe that there's some chemical reaction that does happen, as similar with a man and a woman or anything like that and even family members that fall in love with each other.
Dylan: But we can understand that those things are really different, right? Incest and homosexuality or do you believe that they're similar?
Bradley: Yeah. No, I believe they are all different. So when it's a man and a woman, I believe that those are all similar. Oh gosh, words are hard. Similar... what are they called? Oh my gosh, I literally ran a blank in my mind.
Dylan: No, it's okay.
Bradley: Similar, oh God. Similar chemical reactions.
Dylan: Oh, got it.
Bradley: But they are slightly different and I could be completely wrong with that, but that's just what I believe to be true. If it's wrong, (laughs) then it's wrong.
Dylan: So you believe it's fine to be gay, it's wrong to act on it.
Bradley: Correct. That is truly what I believe.
Dylan: Unless you identify as asexual, sexuality is I think a really beautiful aspect of the human experience that we can attend to, if it's with a consenting adult. Right?
Bradley: Yes.
Dylan: I think homosexual- homosexuality falls into that and tell me a little more about why you don't think homosexuality falls into that.
Bradley: In reality, it's pretty much just because the Bible says it so, and if the Bible didn't say it would be wrong than I would honestly have no problems with it.
Dylan: Then you'd be like, gay sex for everyone.
Bradley: (Laughs) For those who choose.
Dylan: Yeah, for those who choose or are born that way, to quote Lady Gaga. Okay, so you believe it implicitly because the Bible says so, right?
Bradley: Correct.
Dylan: Do you eat shellfish?
Bradley: When you say shellfish, do you mean like shrimp, crab, that type of thing?
Dylan: Crab, shrimp and lobster, yeah.
Bradley: Yes.
Dylan: I mean, so that is also an abomination in the Bible, right?
Bradley: Yep.
Dylan: Talk to me about why that's more okay than acting on homosexuality.
Bradley: Because what we do a lot of times is we look at the Old Testament and not the New Testament. So Jesus took what we had in the Old Testament and filled it, so we don't have to live by those laws.
Dylan: Bradley, I just want to ask, I assume you are not gay, right?
Bradley: Correct. But just listen to me with this. So I think it's very similar for a straight person who is withholding from these acts until marriage with somebody. In that sense of, yeah, it's fricking hard not to kiss or to make out or to have sex with somebody. Those urges are so real for men. The want to have sex is kind of ridiculous, but to not go with what the body wants and to wait for what is right.
Dylan: How do you feel about a gay person who finds their partner, they wait 'til marriage, and then they get married, and then they have sex.
Bradley: I mean, it's still acting upon homosexuality, which is the sin. So I believe that to be wrong. I'm not saying it's not a beautiful thing that happens because it's love. It actually is love, but it's not the correct love in my sense, in my interpretation of it.
Dylan: Not the "correct" love. So then, I actually don't think we can compare it to sex before marriage because sex before marriage is just a different thing. That's like waiting. I'm married and my husband and I can enjoy a very nice meal outdoors without having sex with each other in a restaurant [both laugh] and then, we wait till we are in a private spot to do that, right?
Bradley: Yep.
Dylan: I understand the whole controlling urges thing, but now we're talking about something different, if now you're saying you disagree with... You think it's a sin to be gay, even if you go by those rules and wait to have sex until after marriage. So, I mean, I just want to acknowledge we do see this very differently.
Bradley: People might not agree with certain things, but they still can be friends and get along, with the sense of having different beliefs on something that people feel very strongly about.
Dylan: Well, here's the difference. I totally support your lifestyle. I think everything you're doing is fine. I just think there is a core belief you have that is rooted in making me feel like an Other. Do you know what I mean? Whereas, I don't think there's a comparable thing coming from me to you, right? I'm saying, you are negating a huge part of my existence and do you think by me arguing about that, that I'm negating a huge part of your existence?
Bradley: No and that's where it seems unfair. But like I say, it's in the Bible and so I believe it to be true. So yes, I don't agree with part of your lifestyle, but I still love you as a person.
Dylan: Huh? Yeah, no--
Bradley: It hurts that it's not fair and I realize that.
Dylan: Don't get me wrong, the Bible is a beautiful text that holds a lot of beautiful lessons that have kind of anchored people towards service and charity and helping the less privileged and extending a hand to the poor. I'm not at all saying, "down with Christianity." I'm saying, I think Christianity is a really beautiful thing, but let's not use this book that honestly, could have used a few updates, in terms of telling us how we should feel about other people's lifestyles. Do you know what I mean?
Bradley: It sounds like I'm an asshole, but it's just what I believe and it's not fair. It's not. But if you look at the Bible and you go with the different parts, yes, it is not acceptable, but there's also things that I do that are unacceptable.
Dylan: Like what?
Bradley: Um...
[BREAK]
Bradley: Um... I'm pretty good at lying in certain circumstances, especially if I'm not sick and go to class.
Dylan: And you say you're sick.
Bradley: But actually end up not going to class because I'm not sick. Pornography, that is a sin in Christianity, but I have a terrible addiction to that. So there's things that I do that are not acceptable and I don't condone but I do them nonetheless. The thing is God loves us, he really does. No matter what we do, no matter how we do it, God loves us and forgives us.
Dylan: So Bradley, I should reveal to you right now that there in fact is a title of this podcast and the title is Conversations With People Who Hate Me. Do you hate me?
Bradley: What?! No! I don't hate you!
Dylan: But Bradley, the reason I say that is that I get... You are such a good human, right? I hear that on this call. You're such a sweet and kind person and it seems that you always are there for other people. But, I think what makes me a little nervous about your message to me is that even though this sentiment from the Bible has manifested you in a way that you say is loving, I feel like this is also sometimes the same seed that can sprout into hate. Do you know what I mean?
Bradley: So, in the sense of people hating each other or the Bible hating certain people or what sense in that?
Dylan: No, in the sense that thinking that homosexuality, queerness, is an urge that people can control. I believe that that is a seed that can sprout into a hatred of other people, right? I don't feel like that's necessarily a risk for you, but I don't know. To be totally honest with you, I kind of get nervous when I hear someone as kind and sweet as you, upholding this ideology that I think is really harmful to a lot of people. Maybe not necessarily me because I'm pretty confident in who I am and I'm, pretty gay. [Bradley laughs] There's really no going back on that for me. That's, an urge that the ship has sailed, right?
Bradley: Yeah.
Dylan: But I feel very nervous about the young people in your community who are getting this message, either from you or the other people in your community, and think that there is in fact something wrong with them. Do you know what I mean? And the reason I say this, Bradley, is not to negate Christianity. But it is to say, that I think, and I believe that Christianity at its core is a truly beautiful religion that is all about loving your neighbor, helping the less fortunate, giving a hand to the poor, understanding your role in the whole world. I fear that the sentiments that you expressed to me would scare away a young kid who is coming to terms with their sexuality, specifically their homosexuality and they'll think something is wrong with them. Because even though you're saying "I love you, even though you're sinning by being gay," that doesn't sit well fully, right? There's a bitter taste at the end of that. It's like, "Well, then you don't fully love me because this is part of who I am." Do you know what I mean?
Bradley: I see where you're coming from. That makes a lot more sense. Okay.
Dylan: I'm not just putting this on you, right? You are not the one who came up with this idea. I worry about the young people in communities like yours, who are getting messages like these said to them by people far less loving than you, right? And I worry that that makes them feel like total outcasts. It makes them feel like there's something inherently wrong with who they are.
Bradley: That does make sense and I hear now where you're coming from. That makes a lot more sense. Yeah, that does make more sense. Yeah. It's not fair. It really isn't. But that is what I believe. But yes, I completely understand that I am excluding and disagreeing with a crucial part to who you are. I realize that does hurt and I in no way intended for that to become something that is hatred. I don't personally see it as me hating you, but I do understand where the feel of that is a crucial part and I'm denying that to you.
Dylan: Well, I don't think it's manifesting as hatred in you, right? Because I think at your true core, you are a loving person, but I also worry about how that seed expresses itself in someone who isn't as loving as you, right?
Bradley: Yeah.
Dylan: It sounds like you're going through the world looking for friends, which is beautiful, but I just know that that's not true of everyone in your community. I think there are some people in your community who are looking to hate people and that seed can sprout as hate in them.
Bradley: I gotcha and the people that I think you're talking about is very similar to the people who have become the West Bas- or, West Baptist Church, I think, or-
Dylan: You mean the Westboro Baptist Church?
Bradley: Yes. Yes. That one and they have become into the people that hate a certain group. Well, it's more than just one certain group. It's cultures and a whole bunch of different things.
Dylan: I mean, they specifically, on their tri-colored signs, they specifically hate fags. That's their main target and I'm using their words. Their words, not mine.
Bradley: Yep. I know.
Dylan: But yeah, I think that's a great way to identify it. That same seed that you are kind of carrying, when you see pictures of them, they're carrying that seed differently. Do you know what I mean?
Bradley: Yeah.
Dylan: Yeah. Bradley, it seems like there's a lot we disagree on and well, maybe specifically one core difference, but I wanted to know, do you regret writing me this message?
Bradley: No, I don't. Because if I regretted writing that message then we would not have been able to connect and have an actual conversation about it.
Dylan: That's true. Is there anything that you're going to do differently after this conversation?
Bradley: I'll have a conversation with my pastor and just talk about what are different ways about going about this? What are different ways of talking to people about this subject and how can we bridge a gap or is there a bridge in the gap?
Dylan: I mean, I think there is. I think there are a lot of very progressive Christian churches out there that are bridging the gap and I also think everyone has the ability to change. I don't think changing your core belief on this makes you less of who you are. I think, it actually... You sound like such a loving person, that to me, it would only... it seems that it would actually only make you more true to who you are. But that's just me. I don't know you. Here we are on the phone. [Bradley laughs] This is the extent to which we know each other. It's the message you sent me and this phone call. So, I don't know. I mean, that journey is yours to take, for better or worse. I think for better. Yeah. I appreciate talking to today. So thank you for taking the time to talk to me.
Bradley: Oh, by all means.
Dylan: And I guess I'll see you on the Internet.
Bradley: (Laughs) Sounds good. Have a good one.
Dylan: Cool. You too Bradley. I'll see you later.
Bradley: Thank you. Talk to you.
Dylan: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: Conversations With People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Alen Rahimic is the production manager. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson and this podcast was created, produced and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Night Vale Presents, director of marketing at Adam Cecil. Our publicist, Christine Ragasa and also, Dustin Flannery-McCoy, Rob Silcox, Mark Maloney and production assistants, Alison Goldberger and Emily Moler.
Thank you to all of who gave encouragement throughout this process and also thank you to those who warn me against doing this project. I did it anyway and yes, thank you to those who wrote the hateful messages, comments, and posts that inspired me to turn one-way negativity into productive two-way conversations.
Thank you so much for listening and we will be back with another conversation next week. If you love this show, tell all of your friends about it, and if you hated this show, maybe write to me and tell me why you hated it and who knows, maybe you'll be a guest on the show.
Just remember, there is a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]