EPISODE 4: FACTS & FEELINGS
Anna: It's more difficult to come out as not a liberal than it is to come out as gay nowadays.
Dylan: Hmm. As a member of the LGBT community, I would disagree, but I'm also not a member of the right-leaning community, so I've never had to tearfully tell my parents-
Anna: Right.
Dylan: ... that I identify as right-leaning, you know?
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, I'm Dylan Marron and welcome back to Conversations with People Who Hate Me. An interview series where I speak with some of the folks who have sent me negative or hateful messages on the internet. As someone who makes left-leaning social justice videos, I get a lot of these messages. So this podcast is a way to bridge the divide, to take the negativity as a starting point. Because remember, there is a person on the other side of the screen.
Our audience is growing and it is so cool to hear from you all. Many of you have written to me to share how this show is helping you tackle difficult conversations in your own life, and I cannot think of a greater compliment than that.
Today's episode is called "Facts and Feelings" because my guest brought up a catchphrase that I hadn't heard before. She said, "facts don't care about your feelings." It's catchy for sure, but the phrase also reminds me of all the times I was discredited as being too sensitive as a kid and oh my God, I was so sensitive when I was younger. To give you an idea of how sensitive, I once cried because a friend tried to convince me that Matt LeBlanc, the actor who played Joey on the hit 90s sitcom Friends, was in the movie West Side Story. As a Hollywood trivia buff, I knew this was wrong, even citing the fact that Matt LeBlanc hadn't even been born when the movie was made, but my friend insisted that Matt LeBlanc, Joey on Friends, was in the 1961 film West Side Story. Unable to convince my friend of what I knew was true, I did what any logical, rational fifth grader would do, I went into the corner and I sobbed.
Now, clearly I'm still sensitive and you can probably tell because you're literally listening to a podcast where I talk to people who sent me mean messages that affected me so much that I wanted to know more about them and why they sent it. It's okay. I've come to embrace my sensitivity, but it is interesting to consider how this plays out on the larger scale, right? Like, how many times have you seen people discredited and for being overly emotional or placated with the term, "it's just in your head." I mean, look no further than the common insult for liberals these days. It's snowflake. A term that suggests we're so sensitive that we could immediately melt at any moment.
Now, I'm not suggesting that it's necessarily productive to retreat into a corner and sob when someone tries to convince us of something we know isn't true. Like, for example, that Matt LeBlanc was in West Side Story, which he was not, but is being guided by our feelings such a bad thing? And more importantly, is it even possible to not be guided by our feelings, no matter how objective we may feel we are? I'm not going to answer that. I'll just let that question kick around in your head while you listen to this episode.
Today, I'm talking to Anna and a little while ago Anna sent me this message, "You should really think about diversifying the people you interview. I don't mean skin color. I mean diversity of thought. Your condescension in all your videos is very off-putting, and I don't even understand why people listen to what you have to say." So I'm going to call Anna right now.
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
Anna: Hello.
Dylan: Hi, is this Anna?
Anna: This is she.
Dylan: Hi Anna, this is Dylan Marron. How are you?
Anna: I'm doing all right. A little nervous, but doing all right.
Dylan: Oh, you shouldn't be nervous. Just be you, and I'll be me and then that's all we can agree to.
Anna: That's true.
Dylan: So Anna, hi.
Anna: Hi.
Dylan: Hi. We're doing it. So Anna, what sparked you to send that initial message?
Anna: I would probably have to say it stemmed from just a frustration of the perpetuation of some things that I don't necessarily agree with, like another person is just getting people who agree with him to build up his platform, preaching to the choir.
Dylan: Was there a specific video you saw that sparked that message?
Anna: I think the privilege video.
Dylan: The unboxing privilege video?
Anna: Yeah, I guess it was the privilege video that kind of struck me, hit a chord with me mostly, I think.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: So Anna's referring to my unboxing series where instead of unboxing the latest electronic gadgets, I unboxed intangible ideologies as if they were popular products. Here's a clip from the specific episode she's referring to, "Unboxing Privilege."
Dylan [CLIP FROM ‘UNBOXING PRIVILEGE’]: If you can look the other way when our country bombed Syria, then you use this product already. Today, I'm unboxing... Privilege!
Dylan: Okay, so that's good to know. Did you think that I would read the message?
Anna: Not really. I didn't. I will admit in retrospect, I agree with everything I said up until that last part. I'll admit, I make mistakes. I was emotional and I made a statement that was a bit too flagrant, but I do stick by the first half of that sentiment that I said.
Dylan: What were you responding to negatively?
Anna: I would probably say the tone of voice, most of all. If you said the same things in a different way, people would be much more open to it I think.
Dylan: Huh. I disagree with you on that. I think the words "smug" and "condescending" are helpful to use as a way to discredit the people who you disagree with, to be honest.
Anna: Fair enough, yeah.
Dylan: Whereas people who are fans of mine, they like how "snarky" I am or they like how "sarcastic" I am or they like how sassy I am.
Anna: I guess it's the message that's being put out that really does matter, in my opinion. Clearly, I am a huge proponent of free speech and so you have every right to say what you feel, but I think that facts don't really care about your feelings, [laughs] so to speak.
Dylan: What does that mean?
Anna: Now, I just feel like people, when we talk about I guess, first I'm going to go into Black Lives Matters stuff. There's a lot of feelings, strong feelings, about this discrimination against black people and how more black people are put in prisons and all that stuff. But if you look at the facts and you look at the data, the reason why they're in jail more often is because they offend more often. You just, it doesn't... Just because you feel so strongly about a certain issue doesn't negate the facts that are underlying.
Dylan: Hmm. I would say the fact that Black Lives Matter is based on, is the millions of black people who live their lives every day, who know what it is like to operate in this country as a black person. So I feel like to discredit Black Lives Matter, is itself a feeling that you have. Wouldn't you agree?
Anna: I would argue that if Black Lives Matter to Black Lives Matter, then why are 93% of blacks are killed by blacks?
Dylan: I think talking about black-on-black crime is an unfortunate distraction because the statistics do show that people are more likely to kill people who they live in community with.
Anna: I agree. Most crime is intra-racial. So I do think that it was founded in a solid, you know "whoa, this is not okay." But it has shifted to almost in fighting violence against cops, even black cops. And it's just, it seems counteractive to what they are trying to, originally, what they were trying to achieve.
Dylan: Yeah, I mean, we really strongly don't see this movement similarly. I see Black Lives Matter as something that is not anti-police but is pro-black, and is pro a group of people who this country has been marginalizing systemically for centuries. As long as this country has been around, black people have been marginalized even to today. And I think for the most part, the vast majority is asking for criminal justice reform, is asking for sweeping changes to the way criminal justice is carried out.
Anna: I don't disagree with you on that at all. I do think that, like I said, police brutality is a problem. I agree that black people have been marginalized in this country. It's just kind of, I don't know, it's... I think it's increasing racial tensions. I'm totally pro-black. I want that. I want everyone to succeed. This is a land of opportunity, but opportunity doesn't fall in your lap. That's not what it means. You have to work hard, and you have to put some elbow grease in. I mean look at Ben Carson.
Dylan: Hmm. So I think rather than going back and forth in circles talking about how-
Anna: Right. Agree to disagree.
Dylan: Yeah. I mean, and then I also kind of have issue with the idea of "agree to disagree," because I think there is... I mean, I think there is a real harm that comes with discrediting something as, to me, simple and pure as a movement like Black Lives Matter. But I think for the moment, we have to kind of move on. So, instead of talking about a community that neither of us belong to, I'd rather bring it back to you and me who are people that both you and I are experts on, right? Or rather, respectively. [both laugh] I'm not an expert on you and you're not an expert on me, but you know you best. So you said that America is a land of opportunity. What makes you believe that?
Anna: I guess it stems back to the how my parents raised me. You got to work for what you want. And that's how I've kind of... I guess how my mentality kind of is. You can't, there's no such thing as a free lunch. You got to work for what you want.
Dylan: What is the line between feelings and facts? Because after enough time, lived experience counts as fact, right?
Anna: Right.
Dylan: If I see the world a certain way, doesn't that then become my truth or do you think that that's too subjective?
Anna: When I say feelings, facts don't care about your feelings, you're still allowed to have these feelings. But ultimately, at the end of the day, the facts trump feelings. Of course, you can have these feelings. It's a human instinct to have emotions. I'll go ahead and put this out on the airwaves that I go to, I have gone to therapy for borderline personality disorder. It's emotional disregulation. If anybody knows about emotions, good god, it's me. So it's almost too much sometimes. So feelings occur, but having those facts helps you not let them run your life. And being controlled by your emotions, it's debilitating, I'll let you know. It's not fun. It's exhausting to always feel these feelings at once. I mean, I feel relieved when I find a fact that I can rely on. Like, okay, I don't have to get upset if somebody says this because it's not true. You can say these things to me. It's not true, and you're not going to get me upset because I know for a fact that this isn't true. My feelings aren't going to override me anymore. I feel like I'm digressing.
Dylan: No, this is amazing. Well, Anna, before we continue, in only as many details as you're comfortable with, tell me about you.
Anna: I am an elementary school Spanish teacher. I love to travel. Since I speak Spanish, I actually lived in Argentina for three months-
Dylan: Oh, wow.
Anna: ... back in 2011 in Buenos Aires. I've traveled to Machu Picchu. I went to Ecuador last summer. My parents really value education. They're both teachers. My Dad's now retired, but he's... I mean, they always instilled in me a drive to work hard, the value of a dollar. I didn't get a free allowance. I always had to do chores. Or my dad, he used to cane chairs. He still does, and putting the seats and chairs, and so he taught me how to do that. So I would do that to get money for the summer.
Dylan: Anna, do you identify as a conservative?
Anna: Not necessarily. I would call myself a classical liberal. But I feel like nowadays, liberalism has taken on a different definition. I feel like most definition of the liberal would be like, I may disagree with what you say, but I'll die for your right to say it. But nowadays I feel like people who call themselves liberals are not. They're more extreme. They try to shut down people's way of thinking. And I don't think that's in the definition of liberal at all. So I wouldn't say I'm a conservative. But I'm hesitant to use these labels, because I feel like I'm an ideological alien, kind of.
Dylan: Or you're somewhere on the political spectrum.
Anna: Yeah, I would say I'm almost smack dab in the middle with maybe a hint of right-leaning. Maybe.
Dylan: Smack dab in the middle. Hint of right-leaning. I respect your identity and all of that good stuff. Talk to me-
Anna: [inaudible]
Dylan: What's that?
Anna: Where would you classify yourself?
[BREAK]
Dylan: I would... It's a great question. I would say that I am a far-left liberal. So, I firmly stand in solidarity with Black Lives Matter as an ally. As a member of the LGBTQIA+ community, I firmly stand for trans rights, trans acceptance. I am a firm supporter of reforming the criminal justice system. I believe that there is such deeply rooted systemic injustice in this company. [laughs] In this company. [Anna laughs] I said company. I meant country, but company is maybe the word that I really mean.
Anna: Yeah it's that slip! Freudian slip.
Dylan: It was a Freudian slip. So I think there is such systemic injustice in this country that I feel that it is valuable to examine it.
Anna: It's kind of difficult sometimes to come out as Not a Liberal. I don't want to say conservative, but it's more difficult to come out as Not a Liberal than it is to come out as gay nowadays. And clearly, I don't know anything about that because I'm not gay and I'm not a lesbian. I don't have that. So I can't really speak for that. But I feel it just seems more accepted now to be of the LGBT community versus against the left.
Dylan: Hmm. As a member of the LGBT community, I would disagree, but I'm also not a member of the right-leaning community, so I've never had to tearfully tell my parents-
Anna: Right.
Dylan: ... that I identify as right-leaning, you know?
Anna: Okay, you got me there. Then that is clearly not a very good... It's not a good comparison. But I guess what I'm trying to explain to you is, it takes courage. You have to go up against some opposition, not tearfully and I'm so sorry that it happens. I feel it's terrible. But even last night I was engaging in intellectual discussion, hopefully, on Facebook. And there was a picture posted about a cop and there's a fruit stand, and this Mexican or Hispanic guy, excuse me, is on the street. And they're like, "wow, look at this. You can even be deported for selling fruit!" "Wow. He's not doing anything wrong!" And I'm like, there's so much context that you can't get out of a photo. And it turns out that the guy didn't have a permit to be on the street corner and there's laws for that because airborne diseases, and it takes away from local businesses. So there's actually a reason why he was stopped. And I was called a racist. I have a picture of me and my cat on Facebook and I was told to go have sex with my cat. I was called a bitch. I was called ignorant. I was [crosstalk 00:17:43].
Dylan: So you were told to go have sex with your cat because... Got it.
Anna: Yeah.
Dylan: And what does it feel like to be called a racist?
Anna: At this point, I don't really care because I'm not a racist. And I know that. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. I mean, gosh, when I was in Argentina, we'd get cat-called all the time, and it's whatever. At first, it was just, oh, no big deal. Then it got annoying, but it's like, you know what, as long as I'm not getting assaulted, whatever. I'll just put my headphones on and walk. You are responsible for your reaction. You control you.
Dylan: Hmm. Because I would argue, I feel more defensive of you than you might feel walking down the street and having men catcall you. I just, I would say that that's assault. But you don't feel that way?
Anna: Not... No. No, I don't.
Dylan: It's interesting because when I walk down the street and if... I've had guys kind of lunge at me, clench their fists around me, call me a faggot, especially if I'm walking, holding my husband's hand, and I... That makes me feel unsafe.
Anna: Lunging at you and clenching fists is not okay. That is violence, in my opinion. That is, I would feel assaulted if somebody did that. But if they're just standing on the street whistling at me or across the street yelling something at me, then I'm not feeling endangered. But, I mean, if they show signs of aggression, like physical aggression, that is not okay, that is not protected under free speech.
Dylan: Hmm. But to bring this back to the facts over feelings, you feel that calling words assault is a feeling, but it only becomes a fact of assault if they actually assault you.
Anna: Yes.
Dylan: Huh. Now I feel like we're getting to the core of how we kind of don't see eye to eye. Which is that I would absolutely call words and an invasion of space an assault because I feel unsafe. Even when someone doesn't clench their fist, but they call me a faggot, sure. They don't have a weapon, but I'm still not like, "you know what, I want to keep walking around this guy." Do you know what I mean?
Anna: Well, yeah. And that's your choice to not walk next to that guy. But you can't force that guy to stop saying that word. Yeah, that's an egregious thing to say. And I don't want anybody to say that to anybody, but they do have the right to say it. They do not have the right to physically harm you or anybody that you care about. If they touch your husband, that is not cool. If they touch you, not cool.
Dylan: But that's where you draw the line is physical harm.
Anna: Yes. I do.
Dylan: Hmm. Okay. So Anna, we disagree on some pretty fundamental issues. How do you feel that people like you and I can continue to have productive conversations?
Anna: Well, this is a very good start. I have enjoyed myself thoroughly. I was super nervous before coming on here, but I, like I said, I'm an intellectual nerd. I absolutely love listening to your opinions. I love that you're so open to hearing my opinions and we... I don't think either of us raised our voice. We've been laughing and joking around, and I feel comfortable with you. I feel like if we were hanging out we'd go get a beer after this and be totally fine, like, we'd talk about whatever. That's what I really feel. I feel like maybe after this interview, I'd still want to keep in contact. I mean, I don't know how busy you are. I mean, it's just kind of-
Dylan: No, I would... Anna, I would be totally open to that. But, okay. So, you feel like this conversation was a start?
Anna: Yeah, for sure. And I looked up... I like TED Talks, of course. I can't... I'm such a nerd. But they have four things to keep in mind when you talk to people, especially about politics. Number one is don't educate. So don't go in trying to, and I might have done a little bit of trying to educate, but can you blame me, I'm a teacher.
Dylan: It's okay, I did too.
Anna: Yeah. So it's, but the... I guess when they say don't educate, it's more like don't go into this conversation thinking that you're going to change the other person's mind. Because it's been neurologically proven that it's almost... It's really hard for us to change our own minds about things. So to think that we can change other people's minds is absolutely ludicrous. They say also don't prejudge. Don't go into a conversation thinking that just because they are this type of person that they are going to say this type of thing. Showing respect and sticking it out. Once it gets tough and that's when you need to have the most dialogue. Respect is so important. The name calling. Telling me to go have sex with my cat. That is-
Dylan: No.
Anna: They're encouraging bestiality. That's so not necessary.
Dylan: Also, a cat cannot consent. So I would appreciate that you did not have sex with your cat. Please don't do that.
Anna: And I wouldn't consent to that either.
Dylan: Okay, great. Look, we found our common ground. We don't think you should have sex with your cat.
Anna: Yay!
Dylan: So Anna, the title of this podcast is "Conversations with People Who Hate Me." Do you hate me?
Anna: No, I don't hate you.
Dylan: Okay, okay.
Anna: Oh my gosh. No. I really don't. I don't like that word. I honestly don't hate... I don't even hate my ex-boyfriend.
Dylan: Oh.
Anna: I just feel sorry for him because he's missing out on all this. You know what I'm saying?
Dylan: Oh, Anna. Yes, I like that confidence. Fuck, yeah.
Anna: I don't hate him. I try not to hate anybody. Now that's not to say that some people out there don't hate you.
Dylan: Oh, Anna. There are people who hate me. You just trust me on that. So Anna, is there anything you're going to do differently after this conversation?
Anna: I don't know. I probably will continue to dig deeper into the other side of stories. Is there anything that you will do differently?
Dylan: Anna with the great comeback questions.
Anna: Oh, yeah.
Dylan: Oh, yeah. Anna, you are the type of person who in the past, I would not necessarily be interested in having a full conversation with, because just to own up to this, I would have... I was thinking like, oh well it won't be productive if she doesn't fully agree with me, and at the end of it. And then if I... There's no way I'm going to agree with her, but I think I'm, I... You are helping me listen more, and I think listening is productive. Yeah, I think listening is productive.
Anna: Awesome.
Dylan: Yeah.
Anna: I would agree.
Dylan: Well, Anna, I hope you have a great day and I think we can at least leave this conversation being really proud of ourselves for being on the same page that you won't be having sex with your cat.
Anna: [laughs] Well, you never know. It is 2017, we'll see what happens. I'm kidding. [crosstalk 00:25:28]
Dylan: It's 2017. We're all having sex with our cats now. [Anna laughs] Anna, it was a pleasure to talk to you. I hope you have a great day and I'll talk to you soon, okay?
Anna: All right. Thank you.
Dylan: Bye Anna.
Anna: All right, bye.
[Phone call ends with a hangup sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: Conversations with People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Alen Rahimic is the production manager. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson, and this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Night Vale Presents, director of marketing, Adam Cecil, our publicist Christine Ragasa, and also Dustin Flannery McCoy, Rob Silcox, Mark Maloney, and production assistants, Alison Goldberger and Emily Moler. Thank you to all of those who gave feedback and encouragement throughout this process. And thank you to those who warned me against doing this project. I did it anyway. And yes, thank you to those who wrote the hateful messages, comments and posts that inspired me to turn one-way negativity into productive two-way conversations.
We're taking next week off for Labor Day. So we'll be back in two weeks with a brand new episode for you.
Just remember, there is a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]