EPISODE 25: I HOPE YOU’RE EATEN ALIVE
Dylan: K, you commented, "Ben, if you're reading this, I hope you're eaten alive by wild dogs." (LAUGHTER) So fortunately, Ben has not been eaten alive by wild dogs.
Benjamin: Despite my best efforts.
[Instrumental of ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals begins to play.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER INTRODUCTION]: Hey, and welcome back to Conversations With People Who Hate Me, the show where I use negative online comments as a starting point for offline conversations. I'm your host, Dylan Marron.
This episode is the season two finale which is closing out a huge year for the show. It won a Webby Award, so huge thanks to all of you who voted. I expanded to a brand-new format where I moderate conversations between strangers rather than just speaking to people one-on-one, and I was even invited to give a TED Talk about why I make the show. You can watch that wherever you find your TED Talks. Our audience has grown and it's been so nice hearing from you about why you love the show and how it applies to your own life. So thank you so much for listening and stay tuned because there will be a whole new season coming to you very, very soon. In the meantime, I invite you to tell your friends about the show. Spread the word because word of mouth is really how this podcast gets out. For the season finale, I wanted to cap it off with a special conversation, and this one feels pretty special.
I've always said that change can't happen over the course of one phone call, that it happens over time. So today's episode is unique because we get to hear from a former guest after they've listened to their episode and considered their role in it. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Today I'm moderating a call between Benjamin and K. Now, Benjamin was a former guest who you might remember from episode 17 when he spoke with Emma Sulkowicz, a rape survivor whom he had previously messaged four words, "You are a liar." In that episode, Benjamin acknowledged sympathy for Emma's experience but said he couldn't fully believe Emma's account of being a rape survivor without hard forensic evidence.
K is a listener of this show. She heard that episode and became so upset with Benjamin that she commented, "Ben, if you're reading this, I hope you're eaten alive by wild dogs."
Before we begin, a word of warning, this episode deals with rape and sexual assault. If that's not something you want to be listening to right now, by all means, please don't listen to this episode and go do something great for you. I totally support that.
So first I'll speak one-on-one to Benjamin, then to K, and then I'll connect them to each other. But there is one call I need to make before any of that happens since this episode will directly and indirectly refer to Emma Sulkowicz's story.
[Phone rings. Guest picks up.]
Emma Sulkowicz: Hello.
Dylan: Hi. How are you?
Emma Sulkowicz: I'm well. It's been so long since I last talked to you.
Dylan: I know. It's been so long. So I'm calling because I am making an episode that directly involves your story and I wanted to make sure you were okay with the fact that this would allude to your episode with Benjamin. Are you comfortable with that?
Emma Sulkowicz: Not only am I comfortable with that, but I am so excited to see how the conversation goes.
Dylan: Oh my God. Okay. Great!
Emma Sulkowicz: Great!
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: All right. Let's get started. Here is Benjamin.
[Phone rings. Music fades. Guest picks up.]
Benjamin: Dylan?
Dylan: Hey, Benjamin. How are you?
Benjamin: Very well. Good to talk to you.
Dylan: It's good to talk to you too. So listeners of the podcast will recognize your voice, but for those tuning in for the first time, why don't you kick it off and tell us a little about yourself? Tell us about your day.
Benjamin: Well, I suppose for some maybe enemy number one based on some of the comments. But that's fair enough. I'm 25. I trade stocks from home.
Dylan: Nice.
Benjamin: My life is okay right now. I'm going to go back to school next semester in the spring.
Dylan: Do you like trading stocks?
Benjamin: I do. But it's sort of, it gets lonely. It's isolated, obviously sort of my nature.
Dylan: To catch people up, you were a guest on episode 17 entitled You Are A Liar, in which you had a conversation with Emma Sulkowicz and it turned out to be about essentially how you, but how society believes and sometimes doesn't believe rape survivors. What was that experience like for you to be on the podcast?
Benjamin: Retrospectively, I wish I'd been a little bit more thoughtful. I went back and listened to it and I feel like maybe I was kind of entrenched at the time and more defensive than I should have been. After listening to it I kind of realized I got what a lot of people were saying in the comments, I guess.
Dylan: Oh really?
Benjamin: Sort of how I came across, I think.
Dylan: So you read some of the comments in reaction to the episode?
Benjamin: Right.
Dylan: What was that like for you, reading the comments?
Benjamin: I'm pretty low-key on all social media, so that's probably the only time-
Dylan: That's smart of you.
Benjamin: … I've ever had explicit haters. Yeah. That was a new experience.
Dylan: A new experience. I guess what I want to check in on is did you feel okay reading it? Did it hurt? What did it feel like?
Benjamin: No, I felt totally fine reading it. It was just genuinely a totally new experience being called a psychopath and some of the other things that were being implied. But I, in a way, understood kind of where they were coming from, I think, in a way.
Dylan: That's so interesting.
Benjamin: My feeling was that people who were the most vitriolic probably had some kind of experience.
Dylan: Well, I mean I think the episode elicited a lot of very strong responses. I also think that we got to the end and you were still saying you don't feel that you can fully believe a rape accusation without forensic evidence, right?
Benjamin: Right. I wish I had been more open during that interview, I will say that. I think I did sort of come off defend-y and that really wasn't what I was trying to do. In the moment, I just didn't think about it. It's always easier looking back.
Dylan: But I'm glad you even listened and considered. And also no one has the ability to radically change decades of learning in one phone call. Do you know what I mean?
Benjamin: Mm-hmm
Dylan: So speaking of the comments that you received on this episode, on Facebook a conversation sprouted and a woman named K commented beneath the post about this episode. "Both yourself and Emma," she's referring to me, "showed tremendous patience. I was infuriated by Ben all day and I had to come here to talk about it. His ignorance perfectly distills that brand of smile denial people use to dismiss survivors to their faces. He has no idea what he's talking about." And then the kicker at the end, "Ben, if you're reading this, I hope you're eaten alive by wild dogs."
Dylan: I guess, first of all, how does it feel to read something like that about you?
Benjamin: She probably. She's had some experience that makes her say that, so I don't want to ... It's not her best look and parts of that interview weren't my best look. So I can forgive it.
Dylan: Did it make you feel uncomfortable?
Benjamin: Yeah. A little bit.
Dylan: Yeah.
Benjamin: I tend to believe people when they say stuff like that at face value. Maybe to her I just seemed like a huge, obviously I seemed like a huge A-hole and a person who was trying to say that rape was okay and that I should die for it. I think that's exactly how she meant it. I believe that that's exactly what she meant.
Dylan: Well, the good news is we'll be able to speak to K to figure out what she meant. Just checking in, do you feel comfortable talking to her?
Benjamin: Sure. Yeah.
Dylan: Okay.
Benjamin: Absolutely.
Dylan: I don't know. I guess my fear was what I want is for Benjamin to continue to be questioning the things that came up on the call and I think when I read that, I was afraid that you were going to be like, "Oh fuck this. I don't even-"
Benjamin: No. My experience was you and Emma were incredibly fair and fair-minded. 99% of the comments were fair and fair-minded, even the critiques. 10% were just saying, "This guy should die. He's a sociopath or psychopath." Those are just the outlying extremists. I mean I think it's kind of a pretty expected sort of thing. I guess it was shocking to read initially and then it was just like, "Oh. This is very childish."
Dylan: I am also curious to hear what K has to say, what K's story is in the sense that, as you know, I'm curious on getting a full sense of who both people are.
Benjamin: Sure. Yeah.
Dylan: But are there any specific questions you have for K?
Benjamin: As of this moment, there's only one that I really want to ask and that's the most important to me is that if she was a dictator or God and she really could press the button in which I got eaten alive by a dog for holding that opinion on this topic would she actually go through and do it? It's not unfair to expect maybe an honest answer. I'm okay with the complete truth if that's what she really feels.
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I'm holding out hope that there is a more human reason that this language was used. But um I hope a good conversation will come out of this.
Benjamin: No, yeah. This is-- I really like this idea. I'm very curious just to kind of-
Dylan: Hear where she's coming from.
Benjamin: ... hear her explanation because I would never, online I would never say that to somebody. It wouldn't even cross my mind to even slightly imply it. So it's going to be interesting to hear from somebody that did it.
Dylan: Then that's great. So I guess the next step is I'll speak one-on-one to K and then the three of us will talk to each other. Sound good?
Benjamin: Sounds great.
[Solo conversation with Benjamin ends. Phone rings. Second guest picks up.]
K: Hello.
Dylan: Hey, K.
K: Can you hear me?
Dylan: I can hear you. Can you hear me?
K: I can indeed.
Dylan: Oh my God. Wonderful. Hi. How are you?
K: I'm kind of just caffeinated and clothed, so we're doing good.
Dylan: Oh my God. You've succeeded as a human already. Congratulations.
K: Right?
Dylan: Yeah. It's a big day.
K: How are you?
Dylan: I'm good. I'm good. I just ate a sandwich which was lovely, so that's my truth for you.
K: You can't get any better than food. If all else is gone to shit-
Dylan: I know.
K: ... food to the rescue.
Dylan: Food will save us.
K: That's it.
Dylan: So K, let's start here. In only as many details as you'd like the listening public of this podcast to know, tell me about you.
K: Well, what's to know, I suppose? I'm a bit Irish-
Dylan: Okay, great.
K: ... a bit Canadian, a bit of a writer,
Dylan: Okay.
K: … knock on wood.
Dylan: Knock on wood. I'm knocking right now.
K: Right. I don't know. Just your average biped living on the planet.
Dylan: Wonderful. You're a biped walking around. K, what do you do for fun?
K: Oh Jesus. Well, I'm pretty much an introvert. I do walks by the sea, kind of fashion some music, put it together and write and do book covers for novels and things, kind of just media tinkering, I suppose.
Dylan: I love.
K: I tinker.
Dylan: You tinker. That's perfect. So you're also a podcast listerner?
K: I am, indeed.
Dylan: Well, that is wonderful. I'm glad you're a podcast listener and you being a podcast listener is what brought you to this show. When did you start listening to this show?
K: Oh God. I think I stumbled upon it on one of those lists you find on the incredible edible Internet. They have the most interesting podcasts or best audio dramas or whatever. I think I found your podcast that way and it interested me, so I thought, "I'll download a couple of episodes and see what's what, what's going on." So that's what I did and I was hooked.
Dylan: Oh my God. Well, now to be clear, this isn't just going to be a little patting me on the back situation. But it is-
K: But you did do a good job, Dylan. You did do a good job.
Dylan: Thank you. That's it. That's the end of the call. Thank you so much. (LAUGHTER)
K: Okay. That's it. All right.
Dylan: Yeah, exactly. But you being a listener is actually part of the path that led you here to this call today because you listened to episode 17 entitled You Are A Liar and you had some strong feelings about it.
K: I mean I listened to the episode at work and I was fucking furious, furious. I was so mad. I was mad for six hours at work and then I went home and I was still mad. I was so mad that I went back on my Facebook account. No small feat. I hate Facebook.
Dylan: You had a deactivated Facebook account and you reactivated it so that you could comment on this episode.
K: Yeah. Just to vent because I mean it was, it's one of those things where something just gets you. It just gets to you. This is-
Dylan: It crawled under your skin.
K: It really did. It just brought up a lot of issues for me that I think are too easily ignored. When I heard it I was just like, "Oh gee. Another person just running their mouth about shit they don't understand." And then it kind of morphed as I listened and got angrier and angrier. I think it was more like he doesn't get it. He doesn't understand. And then there's that kind of ugly, petty part that's like, "Well, fuck you for not having to know that. Fuck you for being spared knowing that. Fuck you twice." It was a very like visceral reaction.
Dylan: But just to read the comment and, again, this is not to shame you for writing it but it is what brought us here. You wrote a comment at first praising me and my other guest, Emma, for our patience and then you said, "Ben, if you're reading this, I hope you're eaten alive by wild dogs." That is, I would say, a pretty extreme sign-off of that message but this is, as you know well from being a listener, this is a podcast that is all about hearing why someone wrote something and using that as the beginning to understand each other's humanity.
K: Yeah.
Dylan: So K, with love and respect in my heart, what crawled under your skin so much that you told Benjamin that you hope he's eaten alive by wild dogs?
K: Basically it was a situation where I felt Ben was trifling with a pain the scope of which he didn't comprehend or respect, not just for Emma but for anyone out there who's listening. For myself, one of the worst things about this entire topic is that feeling of not only did someone kind of break into my body, the body you're born with, these fingers, toes, this thing you thought was yours, completely, intrinsically entered. Someone taught you very harshly and suddenly it was not yours. So you have that capital T trauma, that kind of pain. It's like brutalizing someone on a physical, mental, and spiritual level, and just not recognizing how dire that is and how the denial of that reality Not only, it's like it happens and then you go to someone, like your parents or someone you trust or the police, a teacher, a pastor, whatever, and they're like, "That didn't happen. I don't believe you." I mean that's like the most fucking infuriating, disempowering, horrific thing. I mean from my personal experience, having my reality denied was just like ... That was almost worse.
Dylan: Mhm. So, I fully hear you on everything you're saying of why this crawled under your skin. There's nothing to argue with just because they're your feelings, right?
K: Mhm
Dylan: They're valid because they are your feelings. But I do want to pose a question-
K: Sure.
Dylan: ... which is that the extreme way that you have presented this argument, hoping that Ben is eaten alive by wild dogs, I worry about that. The line I'm trying to walk right now is to make sure that I'm not policing your speech but just gently offering my opinion on it because I think what I worry about with it is that while the rage is understandable, you're also directing all of this rage at one person. It's one person who might not yet fully understand the scope of how they play into rape culture or how their need for forensics is hard. So I kind of more lean to the side of wanting to include as many people as possible because I want Benjamin who, from my experience with him, and I know this is the privilege of being a host and being someone who has been on the phone with him. But from my experience with Benjamin, he is a kind person and I want him to feel more and more welcome in the very, very necessary conversation about rape culture rather than feeling pushed away from it.
K: Excuse me.
Dylan: Sorry?
K: Oh sorry. I just had air stuck in my throat.
Dylan: Oh great. I love it. How exciting. Do you fear that something like this is pushing potential allies away?
K: I'm not 100% sure because I don't know how to translate-
Dylan: The rage that you feel.
K: Yeah. When I'm in my better moods I'm very much I'm kind of X, Y, and Zed. Okay, this is something that's valuable to learn. This is something you should know. I don't know. It's like in that moment I do not care. I do not care.
Dylan: Listen. I am also a human and I have said things that adequately expressed my anger and inadequately expressed a more calm approach to it. I understand that when you feel anger, you're not necessarily going to sit with it and think about it and process it and really dig through it. I understand. I understand because I too am subject to the same whims of human psychology. You know what I mean? (LAUGHTER) I get it. I get it. I've done it. I've been there.
K: Yeah. On my better days when I'm my best self or a better self, I would say, "Yes, it could be alienating. No, we shouldn't give random people both barrels for not knowing." And then other days, it's just so impossible and raw and fucking ... If you've ever woken up just in the clutch of a scream or something. It's so hard to then coddle someone because they don't know. I basically survived a bunch of shit, most of what I don't remember as a six-year-old.
Dylan: I just missed that. You said as a six-year-old?
K: As a six-year-old, that's ...
Dylan: Okay. We don't have to go into that if you're not comfortable.
K: I just want to be upfront. It's almost like when Ben saying the stuff that he's saying, it's such a commonly socially prescribed response to the way we deal with this kind of thing because we're so inept at it. It came to a point where I was almost rage crying and I'm not a crier. I was just like, "Oh fuck you. Fuck you and everyone who's like you." I'm aware that's just putting him into a cookie cutter mold, but when you get so worked up at that point it's so hard to be fair and to be reasonable and to be like, "This guy isn't that person. This guy isn't those people." He's not the villain in this, per se, but it's almost like that kind of trauma and that kind of pain is so indescribable. So that's where I'm coming from.
Dylan: Thank you so much for sharing that. I really mean that.
K: Of course.
Dylan: I appreciate how much it takes for you to say that. I don't want to mine it further. I understand. But it's also, I think, helpful to know that you're coming from a deeply personal place on this and I totally see that. I get that.
K: Yeah. I just want to be honest. I don't want to be melodramatic or unduly mean.
Dylan: No. There's no melodrama by just talking about something that you have experienced as a human or how you're surviving from it. And then I think because of that, because of who you are and because of what you've experienced, and this is true for all humans, you have certain feelings, especially when you see yourself reflected in media as you did. I think you saw your reflection through Emma or Emma's side of the story and then you hear someone who is saying that he cannot fully believe them. I understand where you're coming from. I'm in a kind of privileged position to even be able to say that what you said is a little intense because I'm not you. So it's easier for me to be like, "Well, that was a little intense. (LAUGHTER) Don't we want Benjamin-"
K: That's okay. You don't have to worry about that. Yes. It was.
Dylan: Okay. Then I won't worry about it.
K: I just want to say for the record, I'm not actually looking to murder Benjamin.
Dylan: Okay.
K: Just so everybody knows I'm not going to go out and kill a guy.
Dylan: Great. Great. You're not looking to murder Benjamin. I wasn't worried about that. Thank you for clarifying.
K: (LAUGHTER) Just so you know.
Dylan: That's wonderful. Great to know. K, you're about to speak to Benjamin. How do you feel?
K: A little jittery, but I'm ready. Ready.
Dylan: Jittery but ready. I'll connect you guys and then we'll all talk to each other.
K: Perfect.
[Phone rings. All guests are now connected.]
Benjamin: Hi, K.
K: What up?
[BREAK]
Dylan: Benjamin, you are on the phone with K. K, you are on the phone with Benjamin. And now we're all here together.
K: What up?
Benjamin: Hi, K.
Dylan: Let's start here. We're not going to talk about the comment just yet. I just want you guys to get to know each other. Benjamin, in only as many details as you want, why don't you tell K about you?
Benjamin: Okay. K, I live in Texas. I am 25. I have a pretty free schedule. I work from home. I don't do too much, but I do enjoy there's a river walk.
Dylan: Ooh, fancy.
Benjamin: Yeah. That's super enjoyable. There's kayaking as well. There's a pretty good nightlife on the weekends. Thus far, I'm not a super go-getter by a lot of people's definitions, but I'm doing all right, and I feel pretty good most days.
Dylan: That sounds great. What do you mean by that with the go-getter stuff?
Benjamin: Well, I guess some of my buddies went and plowed through school and a lot of them did school with a master's program and they have a very clear idea of a career. I'm definitely not that guy thus far.
Dylan: K, why don't you tell Benjamin a little about you?
K: I'm very boring. I work-
Dylan: Why do you say that?
K: Because I'm a writer and I think people have these images of writers as being crucified by their own talent, drinking, and being miserable. Sure, I just like a bit of coffee and do some-
Dylan: Good.
K: Yeah. I have a few degrees, most recent one in anthropology. I'm the creative sort. I live in Canada currently. Yeah.
Dylan: Great.
K: That's all I can think of on the spot.
Dylan: I love it. Cool. Well, let us lean into this conversation. So the two of you intersected online because of an episode of this very podcast, episode 17, You Are A Liar. I connected Emma Sulkowicz to Benjamin and then beneath the episode, K, you commented, "Both yourself and Emma showed tremendous patience. I was infuriated by Ben all day and I had to come here to talk about it. His ignorance perfectly distills that brand of smile denial people use to dismiss survivors to their faces. He has no idea what he's talking about." And then the kicker, "Ben, if you're reading this, I hope you're eaten alive by wild dogs."
Dylan: Fortunately Ben has not been eaten alive by wild dogs and he is here on this phone call, healthy and safe, which I'm thankful for.
Benjamin: Despite my best efforts.
Dylan: Despite your best efforts, all of the dogs were trying. K, the pack of wild dogs that you sent, they could not find Benjamin so they slunk back. This is just a show where I connect people who are strangers on the Internet and may have started off on the wrong feet, to put it as generously as possible. K, let's actually start with you.
K: Sure.
Dylan: Why don't you explain to Benjamin why you wrote this?
K: Well, initially when I wrote this comment I didn't know you were going to read it. I thought you were off in the ether somewhere. So it was really just a creative, "Fuck you, man." So I don't know if people out there are thinking I'm like-- I have a drove of wild dogs coming to murder you or something, but I don't put myself on a moral height. It's just that's too much effort and I'm lazy. So murder is just too much effort in general. But yeah. When I listened to that episode, it really got to me.
Dylan: K, you just said that you didn't know if Benjamin was going to read it.
K: Yeah.
Dylan: And, Benjamin, you did read it, right? So what did it feel like to read something like that?
Benjamin: Well, I guess initially when I read it, it was sort of a bit shocking. I don't know if shocking's the right word. It's like I was saying to you. I'm not on social media that much and that's definitely the most extreme thing anybody's ever said directed at me. But then after 15 seconds, "Oh, that's the Internet." In a way maybe I could understand where she was coming from based on how I sounded in that interview. But yeah, it was a little bit disconcerting when I first read it.
Dylan: One funny thing I just wanted to point out is neither of you are huge on Facebook. Benjamin, you just said that you aren't that big into it. K, you revealed to me that actually you reactivated your profile so that you could comment on this episode, right?
K: Just to be mad. That's the only reason. (LAUGHTER)
Dylan: Great. Well, here we are. (LAUGHTER) Madness is connecting us all.
Benjamin: In a way, it's an honor, K.
Dylan: Yes. It's an honor. Benjamin, look what you did. You brought more traffic to Facebook's website. Mark Zuckerberg is going to send you a personalized thank you note. K, Mark Zuckerberg is also going to send you a thank you note too. So God bless us all. But let's dig into it a little, K.
K: Sure.
Dylan: What was Benjamin saying in the episode that really got to you?
K: I think in general it was obviously, Ben, I don't know you as a person. But it really felt to me like you were trespassing into an arena that you didn't have the same stakes as Emma did because I understand where you're coming from. But when you take the stance of an abstract, intellectual debate against someone who shows, in my experience, all the red flags of that experience and something that I can deeply relate to because I went through some nasty shit as a kid as well. So the thing that I craved was I needed to be seen and understood. I just needed to see somebody and have them say to me, "Yeah. That was fucked up. That shouldn't have happened. That was wrong." When someone just flat out is like, "Well, I don't know. I don't believe you. There's not enough evidence." It's such a disempowering thing and it's salt on the wound.
Dylan: So Benjamin, how does what K just said sit with you?
Benjamin: Well, I mean I definitely respect it. Nothing she said, I think, is really incorrect. I mean I wrote a comment that, "You are a liar," based on information I had read on the Internet which I talked to Emma and she said that that was all ... that the information was not necessarily as it seemed. I don't have any experience and I think that's what I'm getting from K is like, "Who are you to pass a judgment?" I mean I was invited onto the show. So I think in that way I was there. I was invited by two people who knew the position I was going to take. Yeah. I mean what could I say because I mean I don't really have any moral authority. I don't think I'm any kind of god or all-knowing. I'm a lowly-evolved primate like everybody else. I was going off what I read on the Internet.
Dylan: We're just primates, guys.
Benjamin: It really was what I was going after.
Dylan: I think, K, you referenced something in the comment that kind of spawned this episode. You said, "His ignorance perfectly distills that brand of smile denial people use to dismiss survivors to their faces." So can you tell Benjamin what is that smile denial you're talking about?
K: I think it's just that use of the abstract and the intellectual to kind of pick apart someone's story in a very nice way. I don't think, Ben, you ever were ... You weren't roaring and giving out anything like that. But I think the problem is that so often people have these little doubts that they fling out and they say it nicely. They may not even mean it in a malicious way. But it's something like, "Oh well, where were your friends? How much did you have to drink? Why didn't you report it right away?" In a certain light, these are absolutely logical questions, but they don't grasp the reality that after someone's experienced one of the most degrading and painful things you could ever do to another human being, the last thing they want to do is be subject to an invasive exam in a hospital by staff who may be sympathetic or may be totally unsympathetic or relive it, say, 12 hours after the event in front of police who may be totally sympathetic or maybe absolutely think, "You're full of shit." I've heard First Responders and rape crisis staff who've been great and I've heard staff who have that ... It's like that sympathy burnout. They just have nothing left. So it's like this cold, clinical experience that's another humiliation on top of that. We have the skeleton of this scenario that we can think abstractly and we think is so reasonable, but when you put yourself in someone's shoes when you're asking these kind of things that are opening the door to denials, even if it's done with a smile it's just divorced from the process of how you come back to yourself, at least in my experience. When that happens, it's like the ultimate lesson in powerlessness. Your first goal isn't justice. It's not to get the baddie. It's not to do any of these things. It's to lock that shit away and to regain control over yourself because for so many people, you don't think your body can be taken away from you and then suddenly it can. That's the spearhead of that, I suppose, damage. I t's a silly word. That's your body is in emergency. Your whole self is trying to do triage on that kind of physical, psychological, emotional wound. This idea of, "Why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that?" I mean it's just like if you've been in a situation where you feel threatened or the adrenaline's going, you don't think rationally. Your frontal lobe literally gets shunted aside when the adrenaline gets started. I mean your entire self is just in code red. It's Defcon 5, absolutely trying to recover, get away, put it behind you. It didn't happen. It didn't happen. It didn't happen. I'm still in control. That is the driving factor, in my own experience. Maybe other survivors have it differently. But yeah. The whole system doesn't even factor into it at that point unless someone is exceptionally restrained or unfortunately that choice is taken from them again by well-meaning family or friends or whatever who call the cops ya know.
Dylan: Benjamin, do you have any thoughts or response to that?
Benjamin: No, I mean I respect that insight. I'm not a person who's ever been in that situation, never had any kind of sexual abuse. So I mean I definitely respect that insight. As much as I can put myself in the situation of a person who's been through it, I mean I can understand why that might elicit some extreme emotion. It's like somebody who was abused a lot and then if somebody were to say, try to draw these ambiguous lines between what's abuse. When you've been abused, you've abused. So I mean I can understand why she might have said it, definitely now that she's unpacked it.
Dylan: Mhm, K, do you think this is something that you would say to Benjamin's face?
K: Okay. I'm not justifying this or excusing it. I'm just trying to be upfront. But as a little Irish Canadian hillbilly-
Dylan: Love it.
K: When I first listened to the episode, I don't think I would have said anything at all. Benjamin, if you were there I probably would have had just punched you in the dick.
Dylan: Punch Benjamin in the dick. Whoa. Okay. We're going there.
K: Redneck style.
Dylan: Redneck style. Okay, great.
K: I'm joking a little bit. But it's just like the reaction, it's not just you as a person, Ben, because you're just talking on the show. That's what's happening in this one context. I mean I hate to use the word trigger because it has all these other connotations to it. It's like an avalanche. It's like how do you pack back that avalanche up onto the mountain? You can't. So it doesn't just become you. It's everyone who's expressed something similar to you. So you stop becoming Ben. You become like this amalgamation of everyone who's hurt me in that way. On my best days, I would love to be reasonable, patient, and explain it and link you the story so you can understand exactly what people have gone through and see what their experience is through their own eyes because I think we can all relate to stories done that way. But I mean on my worst days and worst moment like this, it's just so primal. There's only directing it in certain ways. It's so incapacitating, that kind of rage. It's like real life hulking out is the best way I could describe it. Again, I didn't expect anyone to read it, honestly. I was just like-
Dylan: You were just putting it out into the ether.
K: I had to get that energy out or else it turns on itself. Depression is anger turned inward, as they say. So it had to go somewhere or I would have just ...
Dylan: Yeah. Yeah. No. That's also helpful to understand the context of what you were feeling as you wrote this.
K: Yeah. It defies any kind of normal regulation that you try in your everyday life like, "Calm down, dude. This is cross." It doesn't work.
Dylan: Benjamin, now that you understand kind of the context of the feeling behind this and also kind of wrestling with what K said of because you represented all the people that hurt her, that she would be really upset with you after the episode. How does that feel?
Benjamin: That was a loaded thing she said. I'm definitely sorry that it made you feel that way. I didn't say it wanting to anybody feel that way. I think it might come from just ignorance around it that I have, that I wasn't thinking, "Man, what I'm saying there's other people who have experienced what I kind of am marginalizing with my words maybe and that's kind of giving them the feeling." I guess I wasn't thinking about it like that. So I apologize for if it was a week, like you said. It certainly was not my intention, which is I was just trying to give an opinion.
K: I appreciate that. I just want to say for the record that I'm trying to be truthful in this podcast, but I fully recognize that pinning all that stuff to you I mean I don't know if I could help it with more discipline. But it dehumanizes you and it's not fair. So even though it's super intense and I don't know how I could change it if I knew beforehand, I just want to say it really isn't fair because it's not like you, Benjamin, as a person doing stuff. It's like Benjamin and then that immediately gets wiped away. I just want to acknowledge that part of it too.
Dylan: No, totally.
Benjamin: Yes. Thank you. I think that is fair. As much as I can understand and put myself in it, like I said before, I get why it would be triggering for somebody who's been through it.
K: Well, I appreciate that, man. Thank you.
Benjamin: Nothing I said was meant to do that. It really was not.
K: Oh yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. It's one of the frustrating things because one part of your brain can be like, "Chill the hell out. That person was not sitting there twiddling their mustache being like, 'I'm going to fuck K's day up, ha ha ha ha.'" That was not what you were doing. No evil mustaches were there.
Dylan: No evil mustaches. I just am twiddling my evil mustache that I can't grow. (LAUGHTER) So just know that. I can't grow a mustache. That's my insightful contribution to this conversation.
K: Let's all have a moment of silence for Dylan's mustache.
Dylan: Let's all, yeah. Benjamin, please. A moment of silence. Okay. Let's start it right now. Moment of silence for my mustache. Thank you. I think my mustache who never existed-
Benjamin: Here's to the dihydrotestosterone that's going to kick in and make it grow.
Dylan: Thank you. Yes. Benjamin, yes. Will it into existence.
Benjamin: It's going to happen.
K: Hell yeah.
Dylan: Hell yeah. Well, what I do want to say is other than summing this up with input about my mustache that I can't grow is that what it seems to me is happening is that it's all about who we identify with in the stories that we hear. It started from the very beginning of the first interaction that launched this conversation that the three of us are having now. Benjamin, you wrote Emma a message because you more identified with the fear that men would be falsely accused, something that's never happened to you. You've never been wrongly accused of this, right?
Benjamin: No.
Dylan: Yeah. So it's never happened to you, but you had the hypothetical fear of what if it did, right? Then you projected yourself into that, seeing yourself more represented with the accused rapist and you wondering if he was innocent and if his life was being turned over more than you identified with Emma. And then you get into a conversation with Emma on this podcast and you are expressing something that I think sadly a lot of people express, which is questioning of someone who comes forward with an allegation saying that only when it's proved beyond a shadow of a doubt can it be possible. And then K, you listened to that conversation. You identified more with Emma and put your anger on Benjamin.
K: Mhm
Dylan: Still, what I want to acknowledge and, Benjamin, do correct me if this feels unfair and, K, correct me if this feels unfair. But I do want to acknowledge that there is something unequal there because, Benjamin, you felt upset by the national news story of Emma Sulkowicz because you were protecting a person who hypothetically might not have done something wrong in your mind. And then, K, you were upset because it reminded you of trauma that you experienced as a kid.
K: Mhm
Dylan: I think the difference is that, Benjamin, you're operating more in the hypothetical of I want to protect this person just in case. K, you're operating more from the real. Is that unfair, Benjamin? I totally am open if it doesn't feel-
Benjamin: Well, I think it's not unfair. I was operating from many different articles I had read on the Internet where the police investigated and conclusively said that he did not do it. So that's what I was operating from. I didn't have some kind of ... I have no idea who this person is. I don't remember feeling particularly drawn to protect this guy just on principle, on some kind of principle. I felt that way because of what I was reading.
Dylan: But what you were citing was ... Oh man, all the cars decided to go by my window right now.
K: Don't they know you're trying to conduct a fucking podcast?
Benjamin: I know. What's going on here?
K: Rude.
Dylan: I'm trying to connect people to each other and make the world a slightly better place, you guys.
K: World peace, for god's sake.
Dylan: Yeah. You think I should yell that to the cars and then they'll like it? Okay. Back on track. What I'm trying to say is, Benjamin, you were citing ... I remember when we first spoke on the phone. You were just saying wrongful accusations happen. That's something that you said.
Benjamin: Yeah. I mean we know that's true. There was a big case this year with the people in Connecticut. I mean I'm not imagining that. But I agree that it doesn't always happen or that it even happens the majority of the time. Most of the time I think it's true when people accuse. If somebody were to say, "I was raped," I would believe them initially. I didn't do a good job with explaining it, expressing myself in that interview. I got entrenched. In re-listening to it, I could see I got very entrenched. I don't know what I was thinking. I didn't do a good job of expressing myself, especially the back half of the interview.
Dylan: Yeah. No, that's okay. The simple thing that I'm trying to do is to talk about this notion of wrongful accusation, just this thing that you cited in the conversation and is something that people cite often, which is the idea of, well, let's leave room for the understanding that some people can wrongfully accuse other people, right?
Benjamin: Right.
Dylan: I hear that, and I hear that just because that's something that a lot of people bring up. I'm always wary to kind of bring statistics into this podcast because I'm more interested in hearing where humans are coming from. Do you know what I mean? Benjamin, hearing where you as the human are coming from. K, hearing where you as a human are coming from. But I did look it up and it is the FBI, I'm literally typing right now. False rape, the FBI statistics that were found, it's unfounded rape accusations are around 8%. So it's not incredibly common. Now-
Benjamin: I totally believe that number. 100% I believe that number.
Dylan: What I just saw was 8%, but I have seen lower numbers as low as 2%.
Dylan [VOICEOVER]: A quick note about this FBI statistic. This is only referring to rape cases that have been deemed unfounded after investigation. A necessary additional statistic is that according to RAINN, only 310 out of every 1000 rape cases are even reported to police at all, which suggests that the original 8% is lower when you take into account all the cases that never even made it to investigation.
Dylan: I don't usually like to bring in statistics because I think statistics can almost dehumanize the conversation and can forbid us from getting to know the more nuanced sides of people. But I do think sometimes statistics do help show us just how unlikely something is. Since false rape allegations have been proven statistically to be so infrequent, I think that is an instance in which statistics help. But either way, I want to move away from statistics. To put it very crudely, rape and rape culture is incredibly hard to talk about.
K: Very much so.
Benjamin: Yeah.
K: I can say from my personal view, but I'd say a lot of other survivors would be there with me is that I mean, Benjamin, we would share your loathing of people who accuse falsely of rape because I mean, first of all, you're putting an innocent person through the meat grinder. So fuck you. And then secondly, it reinforces that myth that ... It's almost the first thing people bring up when they hear an allegation. So ultimately if people make false allegations knowingly as some sort of, I don't know, power move or vengeance or whatever, it ultimately helps other rapists for other survivors to walk free. So it is such a strike against other people who have suffered tremendously, especially those who don't fit the bill. They weren't the right gender at the time or their attacker wasn't the right gender at the time. Their cases become even more easy to dismiss. So those people who make the false allegations have ... I have no fucking time for them either and I think a lot of other survivors would feel the same.
Benjamin: Yeah. I totally agree with everything she said. I think, just to take a step back, I do think it is very, very rare that somebody does falsely accuse. I think obviously there's crimes against humanity, which is what I think a rape is. I mean who knows how many unreported, unbelieved. It's like I think that was my, I don't want to say downfall, but that was what I did not get across completely in the first interview with Emma was how real I know that is, you know what I'm saying? I get listening to it five or six times like I have the first interview, I get why people would ... I did sometimes sound a little bit unhinged, especially for a person who's been through it. But that was just in the moment, me not being able to communicate. This is obviously podcasts are a new thing. So yeah. I think really K and I from the beginning were probably nearly completely in agreement, I would venture to say. My basic point that I was trying to get across was that I do think that there should be due process. Now, I was very clumsy with it, trying to get that point across that I do believe in due process.
K: I wouldn't disagree because I mean the whole point of the court system is innocent until proven guilty. I suppose the caveat to that is if due process fails, that could mean a rapist walks free and it may not be this one, it could be someone else.
Dylan: Totally. That's what I was about to say is just that some people aren't afforded due process. Benjamin, that goes back to this thing that I said in your initial episode and I would say to you again, which is the world that you see is a really, really good world. I think you put a lot of faith in institutions that completely have been built for wanting you to put faith in them. But not everyone gets due process. I don't think many people realize, not just you, Benjamin. You're definitely not alone in this. I don't think many people realize how many people are not afforded due process. Do you know what I mean?
Benjamin: Yeah. That's probably true. It is true to say that in my personal world it's easy for me to maybe be naïve because I have sort of been in many ways sheltered from maybe life's rough edges. I had a strong opinion and I was pretty ignorant. I remember thinking like, "How did I end up being this guy that's defending this probable rapist on the Internet?"
Dylan: No, no, no.
Benjamin: It's a weird ass spot I put myself in.
K: Yeah. I just want to say your world, Benjamin, that you presented, it's lovely. I don't mean that in a patronizing way. I mean nothing would have happened to me if the world was as you said it was. I still kind of wish the world you painted was quite-
Dylan: Was the real world.
K: I would have liked to be there. Yeah. I wish that was the real world, I really do. (SIGH)
Dylan: I wonder, Benjamin, because you're a very good guy that you automatically think others are like you? Do you know what I mean?
Benjamin: Thank you, Dylan. I try to be fair-minded and basically kind to people. My parents, everybody in my little life have been kind to me, so I guess in that way it's made it easier. So yeah, I mean maybe I was projecting something onto this fellow subconsciously.
Dylan: But it really feels like we're hitting into something big here because I think this is what happens all the time. Benjamin, you do not represent all men. You just represent you. K, you do not represent all women. You are just representing you. You don't represent all of your respective groups, but I think when we encounter someone on a podcast episode, we kind of thrust all of what they represent onto them. Do you know what I mean? K, you were thrusting all of the people who didn't believe, didn't support you, you were thrusting that onto Benjamin. Benjamin, you were thrusting what some articles in the media were wanting you to do which was thrusting disbelief onto Emma. Ya know?
Benjamin: Right.
Dylan: It's this theme that I think I'm kind of working through and a bigger theme that I think is present in almost every conversation I have for this show which is there's so much confusion of the macro and the micro. Talking about rape culture is huge but, K, you saying that you want Benjamin to be eaten alive by a pack of wild dogs won't end rape culture, (K LAUGHTER) do you know what I mean?
K: Oh yeah. That's true. Like I told you, I'm a tough little coconut so yeah. I totally-
Dylan: Benjamin, K identifies as a tough little coconut, just so you know.
K: The one true gender. (LAUGHTER)
Dylan: The what? The one true gender. There's one gender and it's coconut.
K: A tough little coconut.
Dylan: I hope the world reacts well to that fact that there's only one gender.
K: Surprise, everybody.
Dylan: Yeah. Fuck all the people that say it's two genders. It's one gender and it's just a coconut. It's a tough little coconut. (LAUGHTER) Yeah. Yeah. I just think it's interesting.
K: Yeah. I totally cop to that. The way I reacted was just a visceral, primal, instant reaction. There was no attempt at building bridges. If you had attempted to build a bridge I would have napalmed it at that point. (LAUGHTER) I was not conducive to any sort of conversation or serving a greater good in that context. I think it was the fact that I didn't feel like this person understood that person's pain that I relate to so-
Dylan: And thereby associating that and saying and this person, Benjamin, won't understand your pain.
K: Exactly. So then I'm going to take my pain and I'm going to drag it to his front fucking doorstep and he's going to fucking see it.
Dylan: Right. Right.
K: I think that was kind of a core thing of like, "Well, if you don't want to see it, I'm going to make you see it." I'm not glossing that over or saying it's a noble-
Dylan: No, I get it.
K: ... pursuit at all. That's just yeah.
Dylan: Also, I do want to affirm and I want to acknowledge that your anger was coming from a really awful and understandable place. You know what I mean? Now I think-
Benjamin: Definitely.
Dylan: Yeah. On this call, Benjamin and I are afforded the ability to see where you're coming from and it is much more understandable. But on the Internet, it's just a disembodied photo.
K: Very true. I have to say, I am sorry, Benjamin, that I came at you so hard because it was the fist of an angry god (LAUGHTER) and it was only 25% was actually about you as a person. Yeah. I don't know. If I can provide nothing else, it's the accuracy. That's the accurate picture, I think, in hindsight. I feel like that's the most helpful thing I can give from that kind of such a non-negotiable, unapproachable feeling that led to that post is just trying to ... There it is. Sometimes it be like that.
Dylan: Great.
K: Sorry. I don't want to murder anybody.
Dylan: I love that. Benjamin?
Benjamin: Well, I definitely accept your apology 100%. For you, for everybody else that listened to it that maybe had a similar triggering experience, I apologize. I mean I think in the truest sense, I was pretty ignorant and it only got worse as the thing went on. This has made me think about it in a whole new way. I know it might sound ignorant to say, but it made me think about it in ways I didn't even know to think about it.
Dylan: No, that doesn't make you sound ignorant at all.
K: I understand. I makes sense.
Benjamin: It's just not real to me, so as ... I get to think about it in a different way.
K: I mean in fairness, there is no class that's like, "Well, this is what it's like to be traumatized today."
Benjamin: Exactly.
K: "Here's your homework." I mean it's understandable.
Benjamin: I do apologize to everybody for the way I came across. There was a lot of people who reacted and I think there was some justification to the reactions.
Dylan: Wow. K, do you have any final things you want to say to Benjamin?
K: I appreciate the fact that you came on here and you seem like a pretty chill dude and a tough little coconut.
Dylan: (LAUGHTER) “Tough little coconut.”
K: I'm very glad, A, you were not eaten alive by wild dogs or eaten dead by wild dogs
Dylan: Yes, yes.
K: … and, Ben, it's been really cathartic to actually talk to you. So I appreciate that you took the time to come on here. That means a lot, so thank you.
Benjamin: And I appreciate you too. I'm very grateful for the opportunity again, Dylan. Again, I want to say for a third time, I apologize for any damage to anybody that I might have done, even if it was just a moment or a day or two or a week. That was not my intention. I just kind of found myself in a situation where retrospectively I was in a little bit over my head.
Dylan: I really think this is great, you guys. I think one thing I wanted to say is, K, on your side, while I do think that the comment you wrote is extreme, I think it is important to listen through to the rage of survivors and understand why they are upset and dig deep into what is causing that rage rather than just dismissing it as violence from someone who is part of a more oppressive group, who is somebody part of a group that is not rape survivors. And ya know, Benjamin, for you what I also want to say is I do believe that we have to give people the capacity to grow, especially when there was no malice in what you were thinking from the beginning, do you know what I mean? I don't think you realized the full scope of it. I mean you just essentially said that. I really do believe in allowing people who deserve it the capacity to grow. I definitely think, Benjamin, that you fully deserve the capacity to grow and learn.
Benjamin: Yeah. Well, thank you. I didn't. Truly I didn't. I said on the interview that my initial comment that, "You are a liar," it was stupid. It was a stupid thing to say on its own. But yeah. Based on this and just comments, I just didn't even ... Yeah. It was a learning experience.
Dylan: Wow. Well, I really just want to thank you both for taking the time to be part of this. I know this takes a lot of energy and it takes a lot of emotional energy, K, for coming on the phone, Benjamin, for coming on the phone, both of you, for the ability to be introspective. I just think that that is a really, really hopeful thing for humanity. So really thank you both for doing this.
K: Thank you.
Benjamin: Yes. Thank you both. It's always good to make a new friend where at one time maybe it didn't seem possible. So I think that's a good thing as well.
Dylan: Look at that. You guys are friends now.
K: Likewise. Be prepared for shit posts and memes.
Dylan: Get ready for memes, Benjamin. They're coming your way.
New Speaker: [INSTRUMENTAL THEME MUSIC PLAYS]
Benjamin: I'm ready.
Dylan: He's ready. He's ready, K.
K: Excellent.
Dylan: All right. Well, I will go twirl my nonexistent mustache (LAUGHTER) and have a moment of silence for that. It was really wonderful talking to you both.
Benjamin: Thank you guys.
K: All right. Thank you guys. Take it easy, eh?
Benjamin: Bye.
Dylan: Bye.
K: Bye.
[Phone call ends with a hang up sound. The drumbeat from ‘These Dark Times’ by Caged Animals kicks in.]
Dylan [VOICEOVER CLOSING CREDITS]: If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com for more information.
Conversations With People Who Hate Me is a production of Night Vale Presents. Vincent Cacchione is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Gressman is the executive producer. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson and this podcast was created, produced, and hosted by me, Dylan Marron.
Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Moler, and our publicist, Megan Larson. Remember, there is a human on the other side of the screen.
[Chorus of ‘These Darks Times’ by Caged Animals plays.]